An interesting meditation on dying, Bill, very thought-provoking. I'd be interested in a follow-up post if/how your thinking changes post-publication and beyond.
And thank you for the (re)reminder about Iris Murdoch. You've mentioned her before and it's a great reminder I should go back to her trove of thoughts about being human.
Maybe some of the challenge in your conversation on the podcast is you have implicitly different understandings of what constitutes the dying role. Dying is more than a physiologic process; it’s a socio-culturally constructed role that tells people how they should act, and also tells others how this person should be treated. There’s a difference in medicine, for example, between the sick role and the dying role. In our day, the dying role has been desiccated of meaning, so we’re left with the physiologic understanding as well as whatever idiosyncratic meaning someone can wring out of it - which is really challenging. More on that here: https://familymeetingnotes.substack.com/p/in-the-vale-of-tears-dying-and-its
That's an important distinction, Joshua. Part of what I was trying to say is that I don't find much of value in the socially-constructed deathbed scripts. I don't reject socially-constructed scripts in general. I find great value in (some) scripts for how we remember the dead and recognize their passing. (My funeral will be from the Book of Common Prayer.)
I’m reminded of people who say they want to die in their sleep. That is, they want death with as little dying as possible. That’s in striking contrast to the idea that dying time is useful time - Eg, for reconciling, wrapping up business, spiritual development, etc. You want to know you’re dying so you can do important work that the dying time sharpens (even if it’s work available to anyone at any time). Insofar as someone might say they do all that every day, it’s possibly because they live in the shadow of their mortality anyway. But the existentialist notion of living toward one’s death remains. “Dying” provides a helpful frame for talking about that if we try to understand it beyond mere physiology.
>Jarvis was dissatisfied with this. She pressed me but could not get a good answer.
Sometimes I think the dying are treated like combat veterans. "Tell me a story."
>Okay, but there's always implicitly in that the other people who aren't doing that is somehow lesser and and as I saw the degree to which to which I was valuing what I did and not valuing if I'd opened my eyes, I could have seen a lot of other people around me doing that don't have it.
If I'm ever in hospice, I will definitely spend an evening having an Oaxaca Old Fashioned! What a delicious picture! Thank you for that.... Also, if I'm ever able to come for a visit, my only expectatin will be that lasagna is on the menu. Cheers!
An interesting meditation on dying, Bill, very thought-provoking. I'd be interested in a follow-up post if/how your thinking changes post-publication and beyond.
And thank you for the (re)reminder about Iris Murdoch. You've mentioned her before and it's a great reminder I should go back to her trove of thoughts about being human.
Thanks, Barry. Yes, this is an evolving topic, I expect I will come back to it.
Maybe some of the challenge in your conversation on the podcast is you have implicitly different understandings of what constitutes the dying role. Dying is more than a physiologic process; it’s a socio-culturally constructed role that tells people how they should act, and also tells others how this person should be treated. There’s a difference in medicine, for example, between the sick role and the dying role. In our day, the dying role has been desiccated of meaning, so we’re left with the physiologic understanding as well as whatever idiosyncratic meaning someone can wring out of it - which is really challenging. More on that here: https://familymeetingnotes.substack.com/p/in-the-vale-of-tears-dying-and-its
That's an important distinction, Joshua. Part of what I was trying to say is that I don't find much of value in the socially-constructed deathbed scripts. I don't reject socially-constructed scripts in general. I find great value in (some) scripts for how we remember the dead and recognize their passing. (My funeral will be from the Book of Common Prayer.)
I’m reminded of people who say they want to die in their sleep. That is, they want death with as little dying as possible. That’s in striking contrast to the idea that dying time is useful time - Eg, for reconciling, wrapping up business, spiritual development, etc. You want to know you’re dying so you can do important work that the dying time sharpens (even if it’s work available to anyone at any time). Insofar as someone might say they do all that every day, it’s possibly because they live in the shadow of their mortality anyway. But the existentialist notion of living toward one’s death remains. “Dying” provides a helpful frame for talking about that if we try to understand it beyond mere physiology.
That's a deal, Chris.
>Jarvis was dissatisfied with this. She pressed me but could not get a good answer.
Sometimes I think the dying are treated like combat veterans. "Tell me a story."
>Okay, but there's always implicitly in that the other people who aren't doing that is somehow lesser and and as I saw the degree to which to which I was valuing what I did and not valuing if I'd opened my eyes, I could have seen a lot of other people around me doing that don't have it.
Yep.
If I'm ever in hospice, I will definitely spend an evening having an Oaxaca Old Fashioned! What a delicious picture! Thank you for that.... Also, if I'm ever able to come for a visit, my only expectatin will be that lasagna is on the menu. Cheers!